Janine Ogg on Show #10: Asana, Digital Learning, Templates, Outdoor Pursuits and Sub 20 Hour Businesses

janine ogg

Asana, Digital Learning, Templates, Outdoor Pursuits and Sub 20 Hour a Week Businesses with Janine Ogg, Co-Founder of Get It Done Mum.

What We Recommended:

Tools & Apps

  • “I’m a huge advocate of Asana. With our latest project, which is launching our own podcast, we’ve got all the templates in place now, and it makes it a lot more efficient.”
  • Unroll.Me – to make unsubscribing from newsletters quick and easy
  • SaneBox – I recommend this for managing and triaging your email
  • Canned Responses in Gmail, which is a template tool. “I’ve got a bunch of templates saved in there now, and that saves me hours of time composing e-mails.”
  • “We use Google Hangouts a lot too.”
  • Shortkeys – Jo uses this on her PC to create templates that ‘magically’ appear when a short code is typed in.
  • “We’re both using Headspace. Jo and I have both signed up for that in the last couple of months, and we put that on the business because we decided the mindset of being in a good head space is really essential to living a healthy and successful life as an entrepreneur”
  • Jo did a search for gamification and to-do lists to find something to suit Little Doddsy and what came up is called Habitica

Other Resources

  • “What sort of learning am I doing now?” and I realised just how much more I’m doing my learning via podcast or online, like even sometimes via things that come through Facebook, or Sam and I listen to a lot of TED Talks. We’re doing a lot of our learning via new online technologies now. It’s quite interesting just to reflect on that.”

Books

  • Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn, which is a meditation book about mindfulness meditation.
  • Succulent Wild Woman by Sark. “She’s an artist who has pretty much built a business empire, become a very savvy businesswoman. She just writes these books that … They’re funny, they’re creative and artistic. They’ve got lots of drawings in them. They’re all about living life succulently, dancing with your wonderful self.”
  • The Four-Fold Way. “This is a leadership book. It’s Walking the Path of the Warrior, Teacher, Healer, and Visionary, and it’s by Angeles Arrien. She’s an anthropologist. This was the textbook that my life coach gave me when I was in my mid-20s, maybe, and I did a life coaching programme.”
  • The Omnivore’s Dilemma, which is about food “because I was a vegetarian for about twelve years, and this is one of the books that I ended up moving back to eating meat again”.
  • Radical Simplicity, “which is all about basically a “less is more” approach to living your life. That’s really influenced where we’ve taken the business, really, if I think about it, because it’s all about how the choices that you make in terms of what you spend and how you set your life up influence how much you need to work and what we can do to set ourselves up so that we are having a smaller footprint on the earth as well as being able to do more of what we love doing and not be focused on having to work, work, work, work to pay the bills or pay the mortgage or whatever it is that’s putting that pressure on us.

Tips

  • “I guess the key one here for us, and what we’re teaching about a lot is around strategy, because we believe that no matter how many to-do lists you have or how many amazing technological tools you’re using, if you don’t have your strategy right, it doesn’t matter. You’re still not going to achieve what you’re setting out to achieve if you don’t have the right strategy in place. We consistently see people spending a lot of time on things that aren’t actually contributing to what it is they want to achieve in their business.”
  • “What we do to be really productive and really focused is we have two really clear milestones that we have for our business. Usually one’s around an income generation milestone and one’s, for us, an audience building milestone.”
  • “We have what we call a parking lot, which is where we put things where we’re like, “Should we really be working on this right now?” You know those bright, shiny objects that come up and you’re like, “This looks really cool, but should we actually be doing it right now?” We’re constantly asking ourselves that question. If it’s a “no,” if it doesn’t fit with what our current targets are, then we put it in the parking lot and come back to it later.”
  • “I work three hours a week on my passion project as well, which is a river project. That keeps us busy outside of work.”
  • “I guess as I get older I’m getting better at being more aware and noticing my signs for when I’m getting out of balance, when I’m over-tired, when I need to take some time for myself. I definitely still don’t get it right all the time, but I’m getting there. That’s probably one of my biggest learnings, is just how important it is to give yourself that time when you need it to be able to recognise those signs and also just keep perspective about what’s important and what’s not.”

Podcasts

  • “I’ve been going through a phase of trying to get out for an evening walk a couple of times a week too, and I tend to listen to podcasts then. Sometimes I’ll listen to business-related stuff, especially because we’re launching our own podcast at the moment, but often I’ll just listen to stuff that I’m interested in as well. There’s just so much there to discover. It’s incredible.”

Websites

  • “What I do is I’m a member of an online gym called foreverfit.tv, which is run by a Kiwi woman called Nicola Smith. I’ve interviewed her a couple of times, actually. I love her business model and I love what she’s doing. She’s a personal trainer who took her business online, and she’s got this incredible online gym. It’s packed full of quick and easy workouts that are really effective.”

To Contact J9 (Janine)

  • GetItDoneMum.com
  • “We’re also launching a podcast in the next few weeks, so if you’d like to listen to some of the stuff we’re chatting about on the podcast we’d love to have you visit. The focus of that is around building your business in twenty hours a week or less.”

Tweet: “I’m a huge advocate of Asana. With our latest project, with templates, it makes it more efficient.” @getitdonemum http://ctt.ec/rY764+

Tweet: “the mindset of being in a good ‘headspace’ is really essential to living a healthy and successful life as an entrepreneur” http://ctt.ec/2Ka5X+

Tweet: “We have what we call a parking lot, where we put things where we’re like, “Should we really be working on this right now?” http://ctt.ec/tecgx+

Read Full Transcript

Jo Dodds: Today I'm interviewing Janine Ogg of Get It Done Mum. Hi, Janine. Great to have you with me.

Janine Ogg: Kia ora, Jo. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on as a guest.

Jo Dodds: One of my international guests again. You're from sunny New Zealand now, aren't you?

Janine Ogg: That's right, yeah. We're just starting to get some sunshine. We're coming into spring, so the cold weather is easing off and we're starting to spend a few days at the beach, which is nice.

Jo Dodds: I don't think we want to hear that in England as it's just going the opposite way. Tell me a bit more about you then, what you do and where you do it.

Janine Ogg: Sure. I'm based in New Zealand in a little town called Masterton, about twenty thousand people. From here I'm a mum and I'm also an entrepreneur, I guess you'd say. I have an online business called Get It Done Mum with my business partner Jo who lives probably about six hours north of me. Everything that we do is online. What we do is we are business coaches for mums specifically. Over at Get It Done Mum we help mums with their strategies and we help them to build a business that they love, a profitable business, in less than twenty hours a week. Our focus is really on being incredibly time efficient and creating a business model and a business strategy that means that you can earn a full-time income working part-time, and a lot of our mums are doing that from home. Not all of them, but the majority probably.

Jo Dodds: I think we need to have you on a webinar or something to learn how to do that. When we were talking earlier and you were asking me how many hours I was doing and I was saying, "Well, I have got two different businesses," I'm just making excuses, aren't I?

Janine Ogg: We'd love to do that. We have got a webinar where we talk through that with our mums, so anytime, Jo, anytime.

Jo Dodds: Lovely. You're working from home, so do you have an office or do you work in a part of the house that isn't just the office? How does that work?

Janine Ogg: Yup, got an office. It's a really lovely little office, actually. It looks out onto the back garden. I've got some double doors. It's not huge, it's kind of small, and it does double up as another living space as well. My daughter Bella, who's just turned five, she's got her own little work desk, she calls it her office, which backs onto my desk, and then my other daughter Molly has also got a drawing space out here. She's two-and-a-half. It's kind of shared, but when I'm working the children aren't generally here. I've got one of these beautiful old antique desks that can fold up, so what I like to do is pack everything into it and then slam it shut at the end of my work day so it just looks like a lovely desk and it's not so associated with work.

Jo Dodds: Love it. Talking about evening routines and how you stop work, it won't necessarily be an evening routine for you if you're doing part-time, but that routine to close the office, I love that, the concept of ...

Janine Ogg: Yeah, I try to do that, but now that we're podcasting as well, I've had to get this set-up where I've got piles of books on my desk to get the computer and the microphone and things at the right height. Yeah, it's gone a bit askew, that strategy, at the moment, but we're getting there. It's a lovely space. I love being able to open the doors in the summer. I'm right by the garden, and sometimes I go out into the garden, put my sunnies on, and work out there on a nice day. Yeah, pretty lucky.

Jo Dodds: I love the idea of having the children in there, not necessarily, as you say, when you're trying to get proper work done, but I like the whole idea of role modelling a lifestyle and a business life to children. I try and do that with little Doddsy. She certainly seems to be benefiting from it. Do your children understand that you're working from home? Do they know that's what you do?

Janine Ogg: I don't think Molly really has any idea. Bella, who's five, she does, but my work's not as interesting as her dad's. It's not as tangible. My partner Sam is a potter, he's a ceramicist, so we've got a big old shed out the back that he runs his pottery from, and she is out there all the time. Since she's been little she's been wanting to throw on the wheel, throw pots, and she goes out there and does a lot of clay work. It's only recently that she really wanted to have a desk. Today she was humming a tune. It was so funny you should say that, because she was humming, "Want to get it done mum, like this." She'd been listening to one of our videos and was singing our theme song. Like, "Oh, no." Definitely it's sinking in there somewhere at some level.

Jo Dodds: I can see the pottery probably is a bit more exciting than paperwork and computers. No, we love our
computers don’t we?

Janine Ogg: Yeah. All she sees is me on the computer, but she doesn't understand. She knows I'm meeting with people and talking with people, so maybe when she's a bit older ...

Jo Dodds: Yeah. Tell us about what you do when you get going in the morning. Do you have a morning routine? Do you work particular hours on a day or does it fit in with your routine other than that?

Janine Ogg: Yeah, no, we do have quite a routine. Because we're both self-employed and working from home, and we've got the two under-fives, we've found it really useful to have a routine. I just really need that time when the children aren't here to get work done. I'm not really trying to juggle work while the kids are around because I find that too hard. We have the children in daycare. A day-and-a-half a week they're in daycare, and then another couple of days they're actually, my partner actually works at the daycare center. He's just started working there, because he wanted to spend more time with the kids and he loves working with children, and so the daycare said, "Well, do you want to come and work?" He's doing a couple of days with them, so I've just upped my work hours slightly.

I'm working about probably fifteen to eighteen hours a week at the moment. On the days that I work it's get up around 7:00, and we have to be ready by half past 8:00 to get the kids to school. We're not very good really at getting up and getting out. We take a fairly relaxed approach. Yeah, they're at daycare, and then at the end of the day I usually pick them up about 2:30, 3:00, and then have time to hang out with the kids, dinner. I don't tend to work in the evenings, or I have one or two nights a week that I'll make bookings in the evenings. I often find I'm just really tired in evenings after putting the kids down, so I try to limit that as much as I can. I run a Mastermind once a month and do interviews and things like this interview and podcast interviews in the evening sometimes. Yeah, it's just dinner and hanging out with the kids and getting interviewed, really.

Jo Dodds: As far as getting things done in limited time, I normally ask people if they use to-do lists and how they manage their time. This is really what you do, you help people to get more done in less time to have successful businesses, so how do you make sure that works for you?

Janine Ogg: I guess the key one here for us, and what we're teaching about a lot is around strategy, because we believe that no matter how many to-do lists you have or how many amazing technological tools you're using, if you don't have your strategy right, it doesn't matter. You're still not going to achieve what you're setting out to achieve if you don't have the right strategy in place. We consistently see people spending a lot of time on things that aren't actually contributing to what it is they want to achieve in their business. What we're teaching, a lot of it came out from what we have done as well.

What we do to be really productive and really focused is we have two really clear milestones that we have for our business. Usually one's around an income generation milestone and one's, for us, an audience building milestone. For a lot of our clients it turns out to be the same, because they're two really important things for building an online business, but sometimes they can be different. Then for each of those milestones we have two or three underlying strategies that are the, "Well, we've set this goal, this milestone. What are our two to three strategies that we're going to use to achieve it?" That drives everything that we do. We have those.

We check in with those really regularly to make sure that they still feel right, and we're really disciplined about the fact that if something isn't siloing into those milestones, if something isn't getting us closer to those milestones, then we let it go. Because when you've only got ten or fifteen, or some of our mums only have five hours a week to work on their businesses, you just don't have the luxury of faffing about, going off on tangents on things that aren't getting you results. That's the strategy that we've developed. That's what we do with our clients. That's kind of what my strength is. Without realizing it when we started out, I've developed into the "strategy ninja" we've started calling it.

What I do is I get together with our mums and they talk me through what they're doing, and I can quite quickly pinpoint some of the areas where they could really make some changes to start getting better results and to be more productive in what they're doing. That's what I do. Then Jo specialises in helping them take action on that. We call her the chief implementer. I help with strategy, and then she helps to get it done, basically. That was a long-winded answer, wasn't it?

Jo Dodds: It was a great answer as well. You just made me think, "I must go back and look at my strategy ... " oops " ... look at my strategy again." I was kicking over the bin. As you say, absolutely key to be very clear about what you're doing, and therefore what you need to do to achieve that, and what you don't need to do. How do you then change that into, "Today, I'm going to do this"? Do you have certain routines of things you do on certain days or do you just look at the strategy at the time and work out what you're doing, or do you have ongoing lists? How do you manage that?

Janine Ogg: I'm a huge advocate of Asana. I also believe that there's other really great project management tools, but it's using some sort of tool like that that can help you manage your work week separate to your e-mail provider. I manage everything from Asana, and our whole team is managed via Asana. I set up projects or we set up projects in there and assign them to the person responsible, and we manage everything through there, really. I just find that invaluable. Even in there we use it as a template tool as well for different things that we're doing. For example, if we're running giveaways. When we first started running those, we created a template in Asana so that now whenever we want to run a giveaway, we've already got a template with all the tasks in place and all the things that need to be done, so it's much easier for us to delegate that to our VA and it's all really all in place.

The same with our latest project, which is launching our own podcast. We've got all the templates in place now, and it makes it a lot more efficient. There's no way that we could do that if we weren't using Asana. It would be just a nightmare trying to do all of that via e-mail. Asana is one that definitely makes a huge difference for us in terms of the day-to-day project management. Again, we check in with those milestones all the time and make sure that the projects that we're working on ... We have what we call a parking lot, which is where we put things where we're like, "Should we really be working on this right now?" You know those bright, shiny objects that come up and you're like, "This looks really cool, but should we actually be doing it right now?" We're constantly asking ourselves that question.

If it's a "no," if it doesn't fit with what our current targets are, then we put it in the parking lot and come back to it later.

Jo Dodds: I love that idea. How do you then manage e-mail as well as using Asana? Do you give yourself particular times or do you find yourself getting stuck in e-mails, or are you very disciplined?

Janine Ogg: I'm not as disciplined as I could be. Up until recently I've only been working twelve hours a week, so I did find that I was getting really disciplined and just had to just be so focused. Otherwise, I just wasn't getting done what I needed to get done. What I do ideally is not open my e-mail first thing, is to go into Asana and go to my inbox in Asana. That's where all the messages come through on progress that we've been making on various projects. Sometimes ... if I'm honest, often I check my e-mails first just because I often want to see what's been happening. I get excited about what's coming through my inbox, but I have got quite good at managing that. I've unsubscribed from a heck of a lot of stuff.

There's one tool that your listeners might want to know about, and I'm not sure if you've heard of it, Jo. It's brilliant. I'm just trying to look in my inbox to remember what it's called. It's for unsubscribing.

Jo Dodds: Is it the unroll.me or something?

Janine Ogg: Yes, Unroll Me.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, somebody else recommended that.

Janine Ogg: I just think it's absolutely brilliant. It's like a constant reminder that you can unsubscribe from things. Because I think it's something that sometimes you open your inbox and you're like, "Oh, I must go through and unsubscribe from a whole lot of stuff," whereas if you use Unroll Me it just helps you keep on top of it and you're unsubscribing from things all the time. It's made a huge difference to my inbox as well.

Jo Dodds: I must have a look at that. I use SaneBox for my e-mails. There is a Black Hole option, and so I can send stuff to there rather than unsubscribing, which is quite quick. Somebody else recommended unroll.me, and I thought I must check that out because it sounds like ... Does it prompt you to ... ?

Janine Ogg: Yeah. Like once a week or something it'll say, "You have subscribed to x number of new thingies," like nine or whatever, and it would come up. Some of them seem to be old ones as well that might come back through your inbox. You don't realise how many things that you've subscribed to. I'm constantly unsubscribing from things I didn't even realise I was subscribed to.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, and sometimes you subscribe to get something, don't you? You think, "I must remember to unsubscribe afterwards," and then you don't get around to it, so I can see why that would help in that case. Excellent.

Janine Ogg: Yeah, exactly.

Jo Dodds: I'm going to check that one out, never mind the listeners. Are there any other tools or apps that you use that you think would be worth recommending?

Janine Ogg: Yeah, I've got a couple of quick ones. LastPass, for people who have trouble remembering passwords.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, love it.

Janine Ogg: That saves a lot of time for us. The other one is Canned Responses in Gmail, which is a template tool. I've got a bunch of templates saved in there now, and that saves me hours of time composing e-mails. We use Google Hangouts a lot too. Those were the ones that came up for me as useful tools.

Jo Dodds: I've used the Canned Responses. I gave up and started using something called ShortKey instead, because I kept finding my canned responses had disappeared, which clearly ...

Janine Ogg: Oh, really?
Jo Dodds: ... takes away the benefit of creating them in the first place.

Janine Ogg: It does.

Jo Dodds: I'm not quite sure why that was happening, but I'd set them up and then happily use them for a while, and then they'd disappear, so I started to use, as I say, ShortKeys instead, which does a similar thing but helps anywhere. It's a bit like text expander on the iPhone and Macs and so on. You can type in a load of text and then just give it a little code, and then when you type the code in it expands to type in whatever it was. A bit like the Canned Response, but for other places as well as just in your e-mails.

Janine Ogg: That sounds good. I hope that doesn't happen to me. I'll be in a real panic if Canned Responses deletes all my templates.

Jo Dodds: Yeah. When you said you had a lot, I was thinking, "Yeah, well in my experience ... "

Janine Ogg: "Uh-oh."

Jo Dodds: " ... I only had one and it used to disappear regularly." Hopefully they're better now. Hopefully they've made it more robust.

Janine Ogg: I hope so.

Jo Dodds: I'm just so impressed to be talking to somebody who does work very limited hours very successfully. I see what you're doing online and I know how active you are at building your brand and your profile and so on, so I think it's really inspirational for people to hear that. What about when you're not working? Because you've clearly got more time than the rest of us. What do you do when you're not working?

Janine Ogg: What do we do? I guess when you've got two kids under five, basically the rest of the time is taken up hanging out with them, because I really wanted to have plenty of time to spend with them at this age. It's a lot of just hanging out with the kids. As a family the kind of things that we like to do are we like to get out to the beach, into the bush as much as possible. We've got some land. We live about a fifty-minute drive from the beach, so we've got some land out there that we bought quite a few years ago. It's quite a large block that we co-own with some family members, and it's got native forest on it. It's got a falling down old hut that my partner Sam and I are fixing up. We want to spend more and more time out there.

My dream eventually is to be working from there as well and for us to be spending extended periods of time out there, because we just love being in nature. Sam loves to surf and we love being at the beach, and we just would love to provide [inaudible 00:17:45] experience for our kids as well. That's one of our biggest passions outside of work. We also love to travel. We did a lot of that before the kids came along, and we're interested in doing some more traveling with our children in the future. That's a wee way off yet, but that's always on our radar.

Other than that, look, we're both really active in our community. We were both born in this small town, Masterton. I think we were probably like one hospital ward over from each other a couple of weeks apart. We're really committed to this community and to this place, so we're both involved. Sam's really involved in the local art scene, and I'm involved, we're both involved in environmental-based work. I work three hours a week on my passion project as well, which is a river project that we were talking about earlier. That keeps us busy outside of work.

Jo Dodds: Lovely. What about looking after yourself health-wise? Clearly, all the outdoor stuff will be really helping with that. What about things like diet and nutrition and sleep and things like that? Do you focus on that ...

Janine Ogg: Yeah.

Jo Dodds: ... or is something that just happens because you're living a healthy life?

Janine Ogg: No. It happened a lot more easily before kids, because in past careers I've worked as a leader in Outdoor Adventure, so I had a really active lifestyle. I didn't have to think about it very much because I was so active all the time. Now I find it definitely more of a challenge. I do have to focus on it. I don't have any excuses for the times when I'm not keeping fit and doing my exercises and things because I do think I do have the time. When the kids were really little I think sometimes I really struggled if I wasn't getting enough sleep to motivate myself, but I don't really have that excuse anymore.

My goal is to exercise maybe four times a week. Some weeks I do that and some weeks I don't. What I do is I'm a member of an online gym called foreverfit.tv, which is run by a Kiwi woman called Nicola Smith. I've interviewed her a couple of times, actually. I love her business model and I love what she's doing. She's a personal trainer who took her business online, and she's got this incredible online gym. It's packed full of quick and easy workouts that are really effective. It's great for mums who don't have a lot of time, or anybody really who don't have a lot of time to exercise. I can get a couple of those in in a week. She does so many different types of exercise. There's a programme in there for everything and it's all by video.

Jo Dodds: That's great. I really love that idea, although let's point out to the listeners you do actually have to do what she's telling you to do in the video. You can't just watch it, can you?

Janine Ogg: No. I wish, wish.

Jo Dodds: It doesn't count if you just watch it.

Janine Ogg: Yeah, but she does do quite a bit of stuff to motivate you, like there's boot camps and she's just done a yoga challenge, so there's a sense of community. What I'm finding is now that the weather's fining up I'm wanting to be out on my bike more. I've got one of those bike trailers, so sometimes I bike the kids to daycare, and try to be as active as I can in my everyday life. Her gym also has, she's really into nutrition, so she has a menu app that I use. I really try to focus on just eating whole foods. I do the best that I can. Also, I've just reintroduced recently ... I don't know if you've heard of an app called Headspace.

Jo Dodds: Yeah.

Janine Ogg: It's a meditation app. Jo and I have both signed up for that in the last couple of months, and we put that on the business because we decided mindset of being in a good head space is really essential to living a healthy and successful life as an entrepreneur. Yeah, we're both using Headspace. Again, it's one of those things that, you should do it, but it's hard sometimes. I'm doing quite well with it. I really like the way it motivates you and it reminds you that you haven't meditated for a few days. I get a lot out of meditation. I've been doing that for a long time, but, again, it was one of those things that fell by the wayside when the kiddies came along, and it's great to be getting back into it.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, I haven't checked that out. I use a podcast that I recommended on the podcast before, but it doesn't motivate you or remind you or any of those things. You have to do that bit yourself. I have to say, I have not used it very often, so maybe I need something to encourage me to get on with that. It's finding what works for you, isn't it? It's interesting, Little Doddsy and I were having a discussion at the weekend about her needing to do things, certain things that I just end up nagging her about. I don't want to do that, and she doesn't want me to do that either, but then how is she going to manage her time?

Obviously, I'm trying to say, "Use Todoist, that's what I use for my tasks," which of course is of no interest to a nine-year-old. I can't remember what she said, but I found her an app where it's a gamified app. Basically, she said if she was playing or getting points or something then she'd be more interested, so I went and did a search for gamification and to-do lists. It's called, I don't know how you pronounce this, it's Habitica or something. She's just started using it this week, and I'm amazed at how much it's actually encouraging her to do stuff because she wants to get the points because she wants to find out what she can do with the points once she's got them. I think she thinks I'm going to pay her for it at the end, which I'm not.

It is about finding what works for you, isn't it? and what fits with your [inaudible 00:23:38] of being motivated or being able to motivate yourself.

Janine Ogg: Exactly, yeah.

Jo Dodds: What about learning and improving yourself? What sort of things do you do to do that?

Janine Ogg: That was really interesting reflecting on that question when you sent it through, because I hadn't really thought about it. Because I used to do a lot of my learning from books, and I've got a few books here on the table, I got them out when I was thinking about your question, that have influenced me in my life, really, to date. Then I was thinking, "What sort of learning then am I doing now?" and I realised just how much more I'm doing my learning via podcast or online, like even sometimes via things that come through Facebook, or Sam and I listen to a lot of TED Talks. He has his TED Talks on a lot and podcasts a lot in his studio when he's working. We are, we're doing a lot of our learning via new online technologies now. It's quite interesting just to reflect on that.

Jo Dodds: Yes. Yeah, I'm much the same. I love reading, but I'm finding that listening is so much more convenient with the things that I'm doing, so I tend to agree. The TED Talks are amazing, aren't they?

Janine Ogg: Yeah. It's pretty empowering that you can get that level of access to people with so much knowledge so easily from your home. I just find that it's really cool. I've been going through a phase of trying to get out for an evening walk a couple of times a week too, and I tend to listen to podcasts then. Sometimes I'll listen to business-related stuff, especially because we're launching our own podcast at the moment, but often I'll just listen to stuff that I'm interested in as well. There's just so much there to discover. It's incredible.

Jo Dodds: What were the books that you got out before you realised that you do more online?

Janine Ogg: I'm staring at them now. I guess it'd be over the last couple of decades these are the kind of books that ... Because with books I try not to gather up too many, but there are some that I buy because I know I'm going to look at them again and again or they've had such a big impact on the way that I see the world that I have to have a copy on my shelf even though I never read them anymore. A couple of the life ones are, there's one called Full Catastrophe Living, which is a meditation one. It's about mindfulness meditation. That was one that really influenced me a lot when I was first getting into meditation and just using meditation as a tool for self-awareness and staying balanced and just getting to know yourself better. There's Succulent Wild Woman by Sark. I don't know if you've heard of Sark.

Jo Dodds: No.

Janine Ogg: Her books just crack me up. She's an artist who has pretty much built a business empire, become a very savvy businesswoman. She just writes these books that ... They're funny, they're creative and artistic. They've got lots of drawings in them. They're all about living life succulently, dancing with your wonderful self. I remember the phase when I was working through those, and they were cracking me up. A lot of it was about getting in touch with your creativity, but also just being okay with your flawed self, just being okay with who you are, all the good things and the bad things. She's got some great books.

Jo Dodds: I just think a book with the title "Succulent" in has got to be read, hasn't it? Just such a good word.

Janine Ogg: Yeah. There's a lot of humor in her stuff. There's another one that I've got here that I doubt many of your readers have heard of, which is called the Four-Fold Way. This is a leadership book. It's Walking the Path of the Warrior, Teacher, Healer, and Visionary, and it's by Angeles Arrien. She's an anthropologist. This was the textbook that my life coach gave me when I was in my mid-20s, maybe, and I did a life coaching programme. I had just been through a relationship breakup and I was in one of those transitional times when I was doing a lot of reflecting and thinking about where I wanted to go. I did this coaching with her, and this book was a part of that.

It's such a fantastic book. It's all about indigenous wisdom and her research she did around about on cultures from all around the world and what we in the Western world can learn from that in terms of how we live our daily lives and how we view ourselves and our relationship to the environment and that sort of thing. It's got lots of practical exercises in it as well. She introduces each of the archetypes, and then there's exercises that you can do. It's personal development, it's increasing self-awareness, and just getting back in touch with who you are. That one's had quite a big influence on me. I use it in my coaching as well, both business and personal coaching that we do.

Jo Dodds: That sounds really interesting. Brilliant. Excellent.

Janine Ogg: I've got a couple more.

Jo Dodds: Go on then, go on then.

Janine Ogg: Do you want to hear about them or shall we move on?

Jo Dodds: No, no, go ahead.

Janine Ogg: The other ones are life ones. The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is about food, because I was a vegetarian for about twelve years, and this is one of the books that I ended up moving back to eating meat again. Then, Radical Simplicity, which is all about basically a "less is more" approach to living your life. That's really influenced where we've taken the business, really, if I think about it, because it's all about how the choices that you make in terms of what you spend and how you set your life up influence how much you need to work and what we can do to set ourselves up so that we are having a smaller footprint on the earth as well as being able to do more of what we love doing and not be focused on having to work, work, work, work to pay the bills or pay the mortgage or whatever it is that's putting that pressure on us. Radical Simplicity. Great book.

Jo Dodds: That's such a great list of books. None of them had I heard of before, so that's really added a bit of ... It's probably at a bit of antipodean stuff in the podcast, but really [inaudible 00:29:46] helpful, so I'm going to and check all of those out. Thanks very much.

Janine Ogg: It's like we have the slightly radical, slightly antipodean, yeah.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, brilliant. What about on a day when things don't go right? You've painted quite an idyllic picture. I'm really hankering after moving to New Zealand and working less hours and all those other things and having a hut on the beach, but what about if things don't go right? What happens then? What do you do?

Janine Ogg: Oh, yeah, I definitely have to be up front and say that that happens. We certainly have ups and downs. Building a business isn't easy. Jo and I have been doing this for five years now, and it's only really in the last year or so that we've started to feel that those moments of doubt that you have, those "oh, shit" moments, "Is this ever going to work? Are we ever going to make enough money? Think about what I could be making if I was working in the corporate sector ... " All those moments that you have when you're building a business, we've had those. That puts pressure on your family life times as well, especially when you've got young kids and all that stuff. We've definitely been through all those ups and downs.

For me, I guess that's where the things like the meditation and that come in. I definitely lose the plot sometimes and am a grumpy, awful person, but I guess as I get older I'm getting better at being more aware and noticing my signs for when I'm getting out of balance, when I'm over-tired, when I need to take some time for myself. I definitely still don't get it right all the time, but I'm getting there. That's probably one of my biggest learnings, is just how important it is to give yourself that time when you need it to be able to recognize those signs and also just keep perspective about what's important and what's not.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, good point. Last question now. On a day when you've ended the day knowing that you've had that chance to live more, and I talk about living more being the stuff that you want to do rather than the stuff that you have to do or that you feel that you should do, what have you done? What does that day look like?

Janine Ogg: I've spoken to interesting people. I love interviewing and talking with people that are doing really interesting things and that I learn from. I've served my clients and contributed to their success. I love it when I get an e-mail from a client saying that they've had a success or something that I sent through to them has been really useful or something that I said to them has made a difference to them. My ideal day, I've had that, but it's been balanced with being in the outdoors and spending time with my kids and partner. If I can get that right balance between all of those things, that professional reward as well as that personal balance, then I'm a pretty happy chappy.

Jo Dodds: Yeah, definitely. Brilliant. It's been so good interviewing you. It's really good to interview people from other parts of the world as well, because you get to see different slants on things. As I say, I am hankering a bit for being there rather than here, but then the sun has come out, so, hey, maybe it's not so bad here.

Janine Ogg: Oh, good.

Jo Dodds: It's been so good talking to you, Janine. Let people know how they can find out more about you and connect with you.

Janine Ogg: Easiest place to find us is over at our website, which is getitdonemum.com, M-U-M dot com, not "mom." We've got a great e-course that we give away over there with a free work book that goes with it, so they can come and check us out there if they're interested more about the business side of things. We're also launching a podcast in the next few weeks, so if you'd like to listen to some of the stuff we're chatting about on the podcast we'd love to have you visit. The focus of that is around building your business in twenty hours a week or less. A lot of our interviews are focused around that. We've got lots of free information that you can check out. You can join our list and keep in touch. We'd love to hear from you if what we're doing is of interest to you.

Jo Dodds: Brilliant. Thank you, Janine. It's been great talking to you today.

Janine Ogg: Awesome. Thanks, Jo. Enjoyed it.

About the Author

I work with business owners and leaders to improve their wellbeing, in these days of overwhelm, whether that be physical, mental or digital, using my POWER to Live More 5 Fundamentals of Simplify, Systemise, Share, Self Care and Sustain. I also work with business leaders to help them to improve their organisational employee engagement and wellbeing. I believe they are interlinked in a lovely virtuous circle.

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